You Capitalists....

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363321656' post='1303427323']

I am debating on the same concept...Closest to true communist approach has been implemented in USSR...it was fruitful...Capitalism will not promote equality and equal opportunities in the society...It needs efficient resources to see the profits at a good pace...what about the rest who are incompetent ? Are they out of the race ? vallu asalu bhoomi meeda puttakoodada ? There is no human angle in the evolution of capitalism...won't you agree ?


[b]people have to start afresh with a system resembling communism, and it will have lots of capitalistic addendums. lol.[/b]

Infact lol ...for you... If the invention of a particular product is just because of capitalism , I need to go back to the roots , who possess authority over the elements on the earth ? are n't they part and parcel of every invention ? The natural resource / elements belong to every body in particular , you have n't created any thing from the vacuum right and if labour class has n't involved in the manufacturing of the particular product , who is going to see it ? Right from the production to shipping , Labour has involved in every phase . So , are they Capitalistic addendums or Working Class / Labour Addendums ? You can't classify products into capitalist or communist !

I am not against to "Capital" , you should understand this..I am against to the way , the system works...like capitalism is state sanctioned plunder & looting...the wealth created in the Capitalist system will not be distributed evenly !
[/quote]


We'll not discuss USSR, because its a huge failure repurcussions of which are seen even today. They couldn't sustain its economy for even 50 yrs.

I didn't claim capitalism invents new products. Most of the work is done in research labs, whose results are published in public journals. An intelligent resourceful engineer picks up the data, and designs something useful for the public. A capitalist profits from it. So aa engineers leni problem neekenduku?

Natural resource, like knowledge in public domain, is there for everyone to enjoy. Until someone decides to leverage it. The fruits of his labour/risk is all his.

you talk like incompetence is a disease that can't be cured. Every man has a place in the society if he works hard. Have you met Chinese and asked if they preferred their current regime to the earlier under Mao zedong? They'd happily chose their current capitalistic system. So will Indians if given the choice. Not for nothing, everyone, who can, moves to the US.

Capitalism is not state sanctioned looting of wealth. It's a system that promotes competition, and hence improves efficiency. If anything, govt interference is the reason for looting of wealth. Can you name one businessman in India that looted public wealth without conniving politicians supporting him?

[gundubabu]

[img]http://www.desigifs.com/sites/default/files/Brahmi-2_2.gif?1340079741[/img]

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363321656' post='1303427323']

I am debating on the same concept...Closest to true communist approach has been implemented in USSR...it was fruitful...Capitalism will not promote equality and equal opportunities in the society...It needs efficient resources to see the profits at a good pace...what about the rest who are incompetent ? Are they out of the race ? vallu asalu bhoomi meeda puttakoodada ? There is no human angle in the evolution of capitalism...won't you agree ?


[b]people have to start afresh with a system resembling communism, and it will have lots of capitalistic addendums. lol.[/b]

Infact lol ...for you... If the invention of a particular product is just because of capitalism , I need to go back to the roots , who possess authority over the elements on the earth ? are n't they part and parcel of every invention ? The natural resource / elements belong to every body in particular , you have n't created any thing from the vacuum right and if labour class has n't involved in the manufacturing of the particular product , who is going to see it ? Right from the production to shipping , Labour has involved in every phase . So , are they Capitalistic addendums or Working Class / Labour Addendums ? You can't classify products into capitalist or communist !

I am not against to "Capital" , you should understand this..I am against to the way , the system works...like capitalism is state sanctioned plunder & looting...the wealth created in the Capitalist system will not be distributed evenly !
[/quote]


you should understand the current capital markets and the way the systems are designed to promote it.

Most of the money in capital markets are pension funds, social security funds. So these funds provide capital for the markets based on their demand projections, and profitability. Most of them look for steady profits to service their commitments to people who invested in their funds, which is elderly/retired people.

Can communist system come up with a economic model that takes care of our elderly, without overworking our kids, or without drawing from natural resources extensively?

There are socialist policies built into our current system, like minimum wage, capital controls, price controls, and the jury is still out on the effect of such policies, positive or negative, in the system.

And you are talking of completely overhauling this system (which is more capitalistic than communist), without any repurcussions. This, when capitalism is not dead or on life support. In fact, its thriving across the world, and has been making new friends like east asia, and India too.

The only problem seems to be access to credit in the US, which has declined since the housing bubble collapse. And perhaps the impending danger of rising health costs. That requires policy adjustments, perhaps some better lifestyle choices, not tearing down an economic system that is working great to revert to a system that flopped.

[BobbyFischer]

[quote name='narsayya' timestamp='1363322536' post='1303427413']


We'll not discuss USSR, because its a huge failure repurcussions of which are seen even today. They couldn't sustain its economy for even 50 yrs.

I didn't claim capitalism invents new products. Most of the work is done in research labs, whose results are published in public journals. An intelligent resourceful engineer picks up the data, and designs something useful for the public. A capitalist profits from it. So aa engineers leni problem neekenduku?

Natural resource, like knowledge in public domain, is there for everyone to enjoy. Until someone decides to leverage it. The fruits of his labour/risk is all his.

you talk like incompetence is a disease that can't be cured. Every man has a place in the society if he works hard. Have you met Chinese and asked if they preferred their current regime to the earlier under Mao zedong? They'd happily chose their current capitalistic system. So will Indians if given the choice. Not for nothing, everyone, who can, moves to the US.

Capitalism is not state sanctioned looting of wealth. It's a system that promotes competition, and hence improves efficiency. If anything, govt interference is the reason for looting of wealth. Can you name one businessman in India that looted public wealth without conniving politicians supporting him?
[/quote]

The repercussions are not because of the socialist approach by the government , it's because of the revisionism started by Kruschev and the two words called 'Perestroika' and 'Glasnost' and also some sort of stupidity by USSR , like involving in cold war and allocating major portion of the budget towards defense research and development ! Up to 1960 , if you see the Socio economic indicators , you can call USSR literally 'Utopia' on the earth in terms of a state , which had shown utmost equality in the society !

I have not given a statement like 'being incompetent' is a disease , I am just quoting that Capitalism is a running race , where the people who are not productive are out of the race !

China under Mao Zedong , from the day one itself has n't followed socialistic approach...why to compare Current China with the earlier one ? Both the cases are not examples of best practice of Communism !

When a capitalist state is devoid of natural resources or human resources , it will turn into a imperialistic system ! It will use all the good words like 'free economy' 'liberal market' and will penetrate through cultures and borders , which is happening now across the globe !

Thanks to John Perkins - Have you read 'Confessions of an Economic Hit man'? You will get to know what World Bank and IMF are doing in the name of capital investments or giving loans to 3rd world nations !

[narsayya]

nenosthe andaru vellipothunnaru discussion nunchi. I got the message

[BobbyFischer]

[quote name='narsayya' timestamp='1363323851' post='1303427495']
nenosthe andaru vellipothunnaru discussion nunchi. I got the message
[/quote]

nuv single ga unnav kabatti simham anuko...

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363323773' post='1303427493']

The repercussions are not because of the socialist approach by the government , it's because of the revisionism started by Kruschev and the two words called 'Perestroika' and 'Glasnost' and also some sort of stupidity by USSR , like involving in cold war and allocating major portion of the budget towards defense research and development ! Up to 1960 , if you see the Socio economic indicators , you can call USSR literally 'Utopia' on the earth in terms of a state , which had shown utmost equality in the society !

I have not given a statement like 'being incompetent' is a disease , I am just quoting that Capitalism is a running race , where the people who are not productive are out of the race !

China under Mao Zedong , from the day one itself has n't followed socialistic approach...why to compare Current China with the earlier one ? Both the cases are not examples of best practice of Communism !

When a capitalist state is devoid of natural resources or human resources , it will turn into a imperialistic system ! It will use all the good words like 'free economy' 'liberal market' and will penetrate through cultures and borders , which is happening now across the globe !

Thanks to John Perkins - Have you read 'Confessions of an Economic Hit man'? You will get to know what World Bank and IMF are doing in the name of capital investments or giving loans to 3rd world nations !
[/quote]

How many countries in the world can rival Russia/USSR's natural resources. Not a single one. There's enough oil, gas, lots of minerals, and if they cared to explore arctic, they are already rich. The question is not nationalising country's resources, but of nationalising production. If USSR was so great, where are the russian cars, electronics, flooding the market?

I agree that the current system is extremely discriminatory against countries like India, only because India restricts its own citizens from competing, even stealthily against foreigners, unlike China does. Still it'll be wrong to say that India has suffered from liberal policies.

If anything, India has profited greatly needs to liberalise more and bring in foreign capital, or atleast free its own citizens against repressive govt licenses. Ofcourse, there's room for preventing plunder of natural resources, but that question is out of the purview of what capitalism is.

It is true that most of the capital flow to India has been to the mining sector. Eg. to Orissa which has no real market for anything to speak of, other than mining. This has to be corrected. India will still receive capital because of its huge population and gaps in infrastructure.

Life was never meant to be a bed of roses. If its not a race, it'll be a gladiator arena. Weak people are always at a disadvantage. Let me remind you of a country called Japan, which has no resource to speak of, is a capitalistic country (in that it doesn't restrict its citizens enterprise), and is not imperialistic, atleast not after the world war 2.

When you nationalise production, you get firms like BSNL, BEL, ISRO, DRDO. All of them are a waste of public money. It makes sense to invest a lot in scientific research and provide results for people to exploit. But, communism is unsustainable. Some people have to suffer, its the law of nature.

[BobbyFischer]

[quote name='narsayya' timestamp='1363325327' post='1303427603']
How many countries in the world can rival Russia/USSR's natural resources. Not a single one. There's enough oil, gas, lots of minerals, and if they cared to explore arctic, they are already rich. The question is not nationalising country's resources, but of nationalising production. If USSR was so great, where are the russian cars, electronics, flooding the market?

I agree that the current system is extremely discriminatory against countries like India, only because India restricts its own citizens from competing, even stealthily against foreigners, unlike China does. Still it'll be wrong to say that India has suffered from liberal policies.

If anything, India has profited greatly needs to liberalise more and bring in foreign capital, or atleast free its own citizens against repressive govt licenses. Ofcourse, there's room for preventing plunder of natural resources, but that question is out of the purview of what capitalism is.

It is true that most of the capital flow to India has been to the mining sector. Eg. to Orissa which has no real market for anything to speak of, other than mining. This has to be corrected. India will still receive capital because of its huge population and gaps in infrastructure.

Life was never meant to be a bed of roses. If its not a race, it'll be a gladiator arena. Weak people are always at a disadvantage. Let me remind you of a country called Japan, which has no resource to speak of, is a capitalistic country (in that it doesn't restrict its citizens enterprise), and is not imperialistic, atleast not after the world war 2.

When you nationalise production, you get firms like BSNL, BEL, ISRO, DRDO. All of them are a waste of public money. It makes sense to invest a lot in scientific research and provide results for people to exploit. But, communism is unsustainable. [b]Some people have to suffer, its the law of nature.[/b]
[/quote]

e mata munde chebthe intha disco enduku babayya...adi undakoodadu ane kada ayya chebthundi...I am out of disco

U know what is happening in Orissa...Vedanta , company for which Chidambaram has worked is in search of natural resources , and the bloody Indian govt is on war with it's own citizens to accommodate the so called investors...They will destroy ever thing over there in the name of 'opportunity creation'...

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363323773' post='1303427493']

The repercussions are not because of the socialist approach by the government , it's because of the revisionism started by Kruschev and the two words called 'Perestroika' and 'Glasnost' and also some sort of stupidity by USSR , like involving in cold war and allocating major portion of the budget towards defense research and development ! Up to 1960 , if you see the Socio economic indicators , you can call USSR literally 'Utopia' on the earth in terms of a state , which had shown utmost equality in the society !

I have not given a statement like 'being incompetent' is a disease , I am just quoting that Capitalism is a running race , where the people who are not productive are out of the race !

China under Mao Zedong , from the day one itself has n't followed socialistic approach...why to compare Current China with the earlier one ? Both the cases are not examples of best practice of Communism !

When a capitalist state is devoid of natural resources or human resources , it will turn into a imperialistic system ! It will use all the good words like 'free economy' 'liberal market' and will penetrate through cultures and borders , which is happening now across the globe !

Thanks to John Perkins - Have you read 'Confessions of an Economic Hit man'? You will get to know what World Bank and IMF are doing in the name of capital investments or giving loans to 3rd world nations !
[/quote]

Resources in the world are not finite. Neither are they infinite. It only depends on our knowledge of nature that we can exploit for our benefit. New energy sources, mineral sources, synthetic products are discovered every decade.

Since India is now a poor, and a country of mostly illiterates, it'll do well to preserve its natural resources for domestic use and let the country's capitalists, engineers, figure out a way to lift themselves and those around them out of poverty.

[BobbyFischer]

Nature did n't discriminate or will not discriminate any body... There is no difference b/w you telling 'Some ppl have to suffer and it's law of nature' and Bible telling 'Everyone is a born sinner' !

Sigmund Freud condemns what bible said and Communism condemns the so called law of nature , which is forcefully being imposed !

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363325830' post='1303427627']

[b]e mata munde chebthe intha disco enduku babayya...adi undakoodadu ane kada ayya chebthundi...I am out of disco[/b]

U know what is happening in Orissa...Vedanta , company for which Chidambaram has worked is in search of natural resources , and the bloody Indian govt is on war with it's own citizens to accommodate the so called investors...They will destroy ever thing over there in the name of 'opportunity creation'...
[/quote]

communist system lo andaru happy ga unnaru annadi nee bhrama. It's like being happy when you are in your teens mucking around,chasing girls and doing nothing. It doesn't last forever. When you reach your 40s you'll have to depend on your parents/relatives for food if you didn't do anything productive when you were younger.

There are capitalistic systems that disallow transfer of national resources. India can bring in such capital controls. In fact, India has such controls, but ministers make exceptions for their friends.

But for such controls to work, India has to reform its mining policy. The policy of whatever you find on your land is the govts property must go. Since the govt has no mechanism to do anything productive with such finds.

I thought you were against capitalism, but I see you are just against transfer of national resources out of India. I'm too. All natural resources should be free to be transferred within the country, subject to local municipal or panchayat conditions.

[BobbyFischer]

[quote name='narsayya' timestamp='1363326393' post='1303427637']
communist system lo andaru happy ga unnaru annadi nee bhrama. It's like being happy when you are in your teens mucking around,chasing girls and doing nothing. It doesn't last forever. When you reach your 40s you'll have to depend on your parents/relatives for food if you didn't do anything productive when you were younger.

There are capitalistic systems that disallow transfer of national resources. India can bring in such capital controls. In fact, India has such controls, but ministers make exceptions for their friends.

But for such controls to work, India has to reform its mining policy. The policy of whatever you find on your land is the govts property must go. Since the govt has no mechanism to do anything productive with such finds.

I thought you were against capitalism, but I see you are just against transfer of national resources out of India. I'm too. All natural resources should be free to be transferred within the country, subject to local municipal or panchayat conditions.
[/quote]

I am against to transfer of natural resources and also some capitalistic ideologies like interest on money , practicing religion in the name of 'one's piece of mind or belief or blah blah blah'...I want government to become the supreme power , increase the nation's productivity instead of allowing FDIs and portfolio investments or what ever !

The terms 'Capital investment' , wealth creation , opportunity creation long back have taken a wrong turn...just because of the phrase 'man is selfish' ! If you are under a true communist dictator's rule for some decades at least , people's mind set will be changed by looking at a better society after that period ! They will get to know the importance of the society and will become socially responsible , which is lacking in India now !

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363326222' post='1303427635']
Nature did n't discriminate or will not discriminate any body... There is no difference b/w you telling 'Some ppl have to suffer and it's law of nature' and Bible telling 'Everyone is a born sinner' !

Sigmund Freud condemns what bible said and Communism condemns the so called law of nature , which is forcefully being imposed !
[/quote]

this 'suffer' thing is relative. Lets take the case of tribes protesting against Vedanta. What is their problem with them? Do they even have a case?

The property rights given to the tribes itself emerges from the special status given to them under the constitution. So they derive their rights/happiness from the state, which means there must be some give and take with the govt for them.

This is like the water wars btwn Kar/TN, with both sides claiming their fair share. The question to be asked is, what exactly do the tribes want? Education, jobs? and what can they give in return for it?

Perhaps, they are given false promises and forcibly thrown out, like it happens everywhere in India. But the problem is not capitalism.

If you look around you, do you know anyone who has been worse off after 1991? Yeah, I get that many of manual labourers around the cities are displaced by development. So there's definitely a case for better rehabilitation of people who were displaced, and that needs a strong and fair govt.

Unfair to blame capitalism for whatever you don't like.

[narsayya]

[quote name='LeeHarveyOswald' timestamp='1363326917' post='1303427650']
I am against to transfer of natural resources and also some capitalistic ideologies like interest on money , practicing religion in the name of 'one's piece of mind or belief or blah blah blah'...I want government to become the supreme power , increase the nation's productivity instead of allowing FDIs and portfolio investments or what ever !

The terms 'Capital investment' , wealth creation , opportunity creation long back have taken a wrong turn...just because of the phrase 'man is selfish' ! If you are under a true communist dictator's rule for some decades at least , people's mind set will be changed by looking at a better society after that period ! They will get to know the importance of the society and will become socially responsible , which is lacking in India now !
[/quote]

religion is personal, totally out of context of this discussion.

Without portfolio investments, Govt will have a hard time keeping up with payments to the pension funds.

There's an inherent mathematical inconsistency in such a system. Numbers don't add up, and it'll never work out, unless in a country like venezuela which has huge resources.

You also assume that only resourceful, intelligent people will get through any system. It's not true either of capitalism or govt. In centrally managed systems, won't be long before complacency sets in, the productivity goes for a dive.

Ofcourse there's a role for govt in the current system. which is to provide legal, physical infra.. and to keep up aggregate demand levels with monetary policy or payments to govt employees, most of them useless. Perhaps the incompetent people can line up for govt jobs and leave capitalists free to do their thing.

[BobbyFischer]

@ Narasayya

Finally...I will support only communism , may be with some modifications to CM...chache varaku ade great ani nammutha...In a country like India where there are so many social and economic inequalities , I don't think promoting capitalism will erase all those things...India should be , for some time , under a Communist dictator's rule ! That's my gut feeling!