Chola Hindu Identity

[telugu_fan]

10 hours ago, Telugodura456 said:

Soviets were not strongmen. They had party leaders who changed frequenty. infact it was the only country in the world which allowed itself to be dissolved peacefully.

Do bosnians, kazhaks, uzbeks look like fanatics - i dont think so.

China doesnt pass any diktats on beards or names.

IN all of it you are ignoring the main point. You can go after minorities only after fully reforming majorities. Thats the problem indian govt has when it comes to enforcing anything on muslims.

Soviets didn't have leaders who changed frequently. They had Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Gorbachev. you should read how Lenin and stalin had resettled ethnic russians in Ukraine and erstwhile stans to maintain control. The politburo might have seen people change their titles, The soviet union dissolved after it granted autonomy to most of the republics occupied after WW 2, not voluntarily, their economy was under severe stress as well. And you might heard of political prisoners who were sent to Siberian camps to work off.

If you don't know Bosnia has been having ethinic conflict for well over two decades now (it is relatively peaceful now), but had issues with serbs and croats when i think it broke off from Yugoslavia.

Your statement on China doesn't even pass the smell test. Heck even Imran Khan didn't say China doesn't do anything like this when asked about Uighur muslims The simply said he didn't know anything about it. he could have denied it Pakis being the friend of Chinese and all). The chinese proclamations about beards and islamic names that are not chinese bears testimony to this.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2083479/ban-beards-and-veils-chinas-xinjiang-passes-regulation

https://www.refworld.org/docid/5971a80bc.html

You are the one who is conflating a simple act of following dress code in educational institutions to minority rights and a separate instance of reforms whether minority or majority.

Dress code doesn't come under reforms here in this instance as it is the institutions prerogative that the students have to follow, trying to dress that up as some kind of reform, right to education misses the point of some individual coming into an institution and trying to fundamentally alter it using dubious means.

[Telugodura456]

10 hours ago, telugu_fan said:

Soviets didn't have leaders who changed frequently. They had Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Gorbachev. you should read how Lenin and stalin had resettled ethnic russians in Ukraine and erstwhile stans to maintain control. The politburo might have seen people change their titles, The soviet union dissolved after it granted autonomy to most of the republics occupied after WW 2, not voluntarily, their economy was under severe stress as well. And you might heard of political prisoners who were sent to Siberian camps to work off.

If you don't know Bosnia has been having ethinic conflict for well over two decades now (it is relatively peaceful now), but had issues with serbs and croats when i think it broke off from Yugoslavia.

Your statement on China doesn't even pass the smell test. Heck even Imran Khan didn't say China doesn't do anything like this when asked about Uighur muslims The simply said he didn't know anything about it. he could have denied it Pakis being the friend of Chinese and all). The chinese proclamations about beards and islamic names that are not chinese bears testimony to this.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2083479/ban-beards-and-veils-chinas-xinjiang-passes-regulation

https://www.refworld.org/docid/5971a80bc.html

You are the one who is conflating a simple act of following dress code in educational institutions to minority rights and a separate instance of reforms whether minority or majority.

Dress code doesn't come under reforms here in this instance as it is the institutions prerogative that the students have to follow, trying to dress that up as some kind of reform, right to education misses the point of some individual coming into an institution and trying to fundamentally alter it using dubious means.

You are mingling a lot of things with midi midi knowledge. Take Imran khan - he actually sent his official to investigate Uighur issue and they found nothing wrong. it looks like you dont have accurate information on a lot of things.

 

But anyway lets stick to main topic - how muslims embrace modernity under different systems - that was my main point.

If you look at muslims under real left before - Bosnians, Kazhaks, uzbeks, Uighurs - they dont weak burqas. They show modern behavior.

But muslims under india, pakistan, gulf and even western countries still stick to traditional ones.

[telugu_fan]

3 hours ago, Telugodura456 said:

You are mingling a lot of things with midi midi knowledge. Take Imran khan - he actually sent his official to investigate Uighur issue and they found nothing wrong. it looks like you dont have accurate information on a lot of things.

 

But anyway lets stick to main topic - how muslims embrace modernity under different systems - that was my main point.

If you look at muslims under real left before - Bosnians, Kazhaks, uzbeks, Uighurs - they dont weak burqas. They show modern behavior.

But muslims under india, pakistan, gulf and even western countries still stick to traditional ones.

Okay, lets stick to this one, over the course of arguments/debate this thread has morphed from KH statements to atheism and burqa issues.

Naadi midi midi knowledge kaadu bhayya. You seriously think Imran Khans official will investigate anything in China and China agreed to this? This is the same China that didn't allow any officials to investigate the covid origins unless everything was done their way. My point was Imran Khan himself didn't say China doesn't do anything like this on Uighur which is what you are passing in your comment. I have purposefully ommitted Al-Jazeera and BBC and CNN links for the call of muslim and western bias. SCMP is supposed to be chinese party mouth piece for most part and they are reporting on names curbs.

Muslims in "real left" countries as you said don't follow burqa because it is strictly enforced and after a while that becomes the new normal. This is what i meant by strong man tactics.

Communism sees everyone as equal or atleast it did when it came along. there were only comrades no men or woman. later we had proletariat, bourgeois and more new concepts came in. Communists in India don't follow this principle either like the "pure left" either because of vote bank politics. That is also fine as India is a democracy. In democracies people can choose to do anything - especially in India "as long as Public morality and law and order is maintained". That is the crux of the argument.

Another example is when loud speakers introduced in India, muslim mullahs issued a fatwa saying this is shaitaan ki awaaz, but now loudspeakers are a must for a call to azaan. things change and will depend on people implementing it.

[Telugodura456]

31 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

Okay, lets stick to this one, over the course of arguments/debate this thread has morphed from KH statements to atheism and burqa issues.

Naadi midi midi knowledge kaadu bhayya. You seriously think Imran Khans official will investigate anything in China and China agreed to this? This is the same China that didn't allow any officials to investigate the covid origins unless everything was done their way. My point was Imran Khan himself didn't say China doesn't do anything like this on Uighur which is what you are passing in your comment. I have purposefully ommitted Al-Jazeera and BBC and CNN links for the call of muslim and western bias. SCMP is supposed to be chinese party mouth piece for most part and they are reporting on names curbs.

Muslims in "real left" countries as you said don't follow burqa because it is strictly enforced and after a while that becomes the new normal. This is what i meant by strong man tactics.

Communism sees everyone as equal or atleast it did when it came along. there were only comrades no men or woman. later we had proletariat, bourgeois and more new concepts came in. Communists in India don't follow this principle either like the "pure left" either because of vote bank politics. That is also fine as India is a democracy. In democracies people can choose to do anything - especially in India "as long as Public morality and law and order is maintained". That is the crux of the argument.

Another example is when loud speakers introduced in India, muslim mullahs issued a fatwa saying this is shaitaan ki awaaz, but now loudspeakers are a must for a call to azaan. things change and will depend on people implementing it.

IN this interview Imran Khan says his ambassador investigated in china and found nothing wrong. So that directly contradicts your claim that Imran khan said China didnt do anything. He actually said that . So you are wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuaR_qSecl8

Communists in india are crap i agree. 

First understand i also want burqas and loud speakers gone.  But it is not fault of muslim community but lack of credibility of indian society and indian govt to enforce these things.

You speculate leftists as  "strong man". There are no strong men in china. Stalin child did not become next president nor is XI any relative of Mao.

They strongly went againt bigotry in all religions - starting first with the majority one. That gave them credibility and respect among minorities.

Its funny you call them strongmen but want strongmen tactics in india like bans on burqas.

 

 

[telugu_fan]

2 hours ago, Telugodura456 said:

IN this interview Imran Khan says his ambassador investigated in china and found nothing wrong. So that directly contradicts your claim that Imran khan said China didnt do anything. He actually said that . So you are wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuaR_qSecl8

 

 

Imran Khan's views have changed over time, you have linked a video of his in jan 2022 by the date of the video. i am guessing this was during his trip to the beijing winter games.

In 2019 Imran khan said he didn't know about the uighur issue at all and wouldn't comment on it. Naila Inayat a pakistani journalist also quotes him in twitter in the print link below.

https://www.thequint.com/news/world/pakistan-pm-imran-khan-on-china-uighur-muslims-united-states

https://www.wionews.com/south-asia/dont-know-much-about-imran-khan-on-situation-of-uighurs-muslims-in-china-249715

https://theprint.in/defence/ousting-uyghur-leader-a-crackdown-on-graft-but-china-has-built-enough-gulags-for-them-too/91257/

in 2021 in axios interview he said we speak with them behind closed doors about any issues adding that China helped Pakistan in time of need (say cha ching dollars as loan$) and then goes on on Kashmir.

https://www.vox.com/2021/6/23/22545232/axios-pakistan-khan-china-uyghurs-belt-road

So from 2019 to 2022 depending on his/Pak's requirement he has said don't know to we speak behind closed doors to china doesn't do anything bad or wrong.

I have also posted scmp links in the previous posts - south china morning post talks about banning muslim names which are extreme to curb terrorism and other reasons. scmp is something that doesn't go against the chinese govt and it itself is saying about the ban.

Turkey also said the same thing about Uighur ill treatment and when China stepped in with trade deals and covid vaccineswent silent on uighur issue.

This is erdogan on the issue in 2009,

https://www.france24.com/en/20090710-turkish-pm-erdogan-xinjiang-violence-genocide-turkey-uighurs-han-trade-beijing-china

and in 2021

https://www.voanews.com/a/east-asia-pacific_turkey-cracks-down-uighur-protesters-after-china-complains/6202920.html

after china gave covid vaccines and trade deals to Turkey.

Point is every country is looking after their own interests - India will also have to look after her interests.

[telugu_fan]

2 hours ago, Telugodura456 said:

 

Communists in india are crap i agree. 

First understand i also want burqas and loud speakers gone.  But it is not fault of muslim community but lack of credibility of indian society and indian govt to enforce these things.

You speculate leftists as  "strong man". There are no strong men in china. Stalin child did not become next president nor is XI any relative of Mao.

They strongly went againt bigotry in all religions - starting first with the majority one. That gave them credibility and respect among minorities.

Its funny you call them strongmen but want strongmen tactics in india like bans on burqas.

 

Mao and stalin were all strong men that didn't go for dialogue or convincing. mao imprisoned many of his politburo members after his disastrous great leap forward and cultural revolutions that led to many a death in the citizen ranks.

the example of the chinese killing all the small birds that would prey on insects and also grain led to disaster for the farming sector. Many of the politburo member who were turning against him were jailed including Chou En Lai i believe and also the current president Xi's father. the one child policy was run ruthlessly as in babies were aborted with force as another example.

Stalin is equally known for his purges and sending people to Siberia to "work there".

In all the cases after a strong ruler there have been a little bit of openness as you see with Krushchev and Deng Xiopeng in Soviet and China respectively.

The respect for the leftists or the atheists also had to do with the fact that they went "only after the majority". Similar things now get branded majoritarianism. Reforms comes externally most of the time due to not being prodded nobody changes or looks to change.

Muslim community will atleast by minimum have to reform from within, but has any meaningful reform come or has any steps come about, maybe they have but i haven't seen as they get destroyed with vote bank politics. Shahbano case judgement was overturned to appease vote banks is one example that i can think of. The habit of Nikah halala not done in many of the islamic countries was continuing in India without second thought and the banning of nikah halala was also opposed initially.

You and raven_reyes are going on about burqa being banned. I will repeat again, burqa is not being banned in India. I have seen people in India walking around with their burqas normally even after this controversy.

In a public school you will have to wear the uniform. All of us who went to schools in India will attest to that. If the girls wanted burqa, they could have gone to a minority led institution where that facility would have been there. You cannot go to a public institution run under normal laws and try to apply minority specific laws there just because you feel entitled.

Companies having formal dress culture also don't tolerate people breaking the same. will the said employees shout discrimination and racism for that if the company applies its laws?