Chola Hindu Identity

[Raven_Rayes]

43 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

I am referring to hypocites who use terms like Atheists, they can be leftists, islamist, Hindus also. I have only quoted those names as examples.

I am saying if you have called yourself an atheist then any superstition is fair game.

You can criticize the evil practice in society no matter where ever it is. there are substantial muslim and christian people in India as well and a lot of practices are followed here as well. Just because you are scared that somebody will separate your head can't be silent on aspect while piling on the other community that normally isn't violent is just escapism and cowardice as far as i am concerned and such people end up hurting the cause more than others by strengthening the counter arguments in the long run.

what cause? the building of Hindutva nation's cause? I wish that cause is defeated.

because a lot of atheists are the ones leading the Hindutva movement. or atleast used to, until Modi/Yogi became powerful. even now plenty of Hindutva intellectuals are not religious.

Atheism has no cause. It has no defined political goal or a community that fights towards it. most atheists are forced to identify themselves with another identity if they want to feel part of a group - like leftist or hindutva etc.

what you have a problem with is leftists.. not atheists. because there are Indian atheists who pour venom only on Islam while giving free pass to xianity. In fact a lot of open atheists are probably of the HIndutva variety.

[Raven_Rayes]

43 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

 

the govt of India should work for everyone - majority or minority, Hindus or otherwise, saying that govt working for Hindus or enacting something for Hindus is bad is well just poor knowledge of the way a govt should function.

its not poor knowledge. Indian govt is actively trying to hurt muslims.

if you think its not true, you are living in la la land.

[Raven_Rayes]

1 hour ago, telugu_fan said:

Hindus or for that matter any person of other religions will not be okay with the criticism of their religion or the attacks on their gods/holy figures. that is to be expected. Nobody is also saying that atheists will be crowned with garlands for their work. Most of their work will be revisited maybe years or decades after their work to see the changes in the society.

Todays self styled atheists like Javed Akhtar, irfan habib to quote as examples (they have called themselves atheists not me) and most of the others (there might be some who are genuinely doing good work) are just a bunch of people who see criticizing Hindus and Hinduism as Hindus don't do Sar tan Se Juda kind of antics.

You will not find people fighting for woman rights say that same thing about Nikah halala practice, or the people speaking about goonghat not talk about burqa when they can be clubbed under womans choice and freedom. These antics expose them for the hypocritical nature they exhibit when even after asking they are not willing to condemn regressive practices. So they loose support of majority of the people, the people following the practice will not support them either way whether hindus or other religions.

so stop saying Hindus are tolerant of atheists.. they are not. atheists have been murdered in India, jailed for mocking gods.. etc its not that uncommon.

there are women groups helping muslim women to access education, health and marital rights. you want them to be as popular as Javed Akhtar, Irfan Habib, then stop pouring venom on muslims and help such groups.

but if your intention is to attack burqa practice, you are going to fail. because at the fundamental level most groups are worried about kids access to education, and not the backwardness of the cultural practice.

the first aim is to improve muslim girls literacy rates, and access to jobs and bring them into mainstream, and then hopefully someone within that community is going to emerge like a reformer.

anyone who supports burqa as a great thing is a fcuking asshole. so are people who support karnataka's govt order banning burqas at school.. because it affects girl kids education.

you are worried about some cultural signifier (even an oppressive one like burqa), activists are worried about kids access to education.

that said, if the girl wants to wear a burqa to assert her muslim identity, given the overall climate in India where Hindus are breathing venom, I wouldn't blame the girl. Some muslim girls like her wantedly wear burqa as a big middle finger to the majority. I welcome such revolutionary acts.

I consider such women as brave as bhagat singh. because you should try walking with burqa in a politically charged atmosphere. It needs nerves of steel.

[Raven_Rayes]

1 hour ago, telugu_fan said:

Perhaps you have any working solutions that the govt of India can enact for the minorities apart from what they are already doing. the minority commission has more money and representation that % of their population. Not that i have any issue with it. but what exactly do you need the govt to provide for the minorities that it can do more?

reservations for minorities at the union level. greater representation in politics - and ministry.

Indian govt is doing absolutely nothing for minorities. muslims especially given their history (overwhelming majority of conversion into islam  happened in the last century) face discrimination in every form imaginable in India. social economic and cultural.. except in a few areas like Hyderabad where they are the majority. Even in Hyd most of the development happened outside of their colonies.

minorities are not just musilms. Its dalits too, who are only recently being courted by the Hindutva gang. and that only dalit castes that are willing to embrace the Hindu identity.

i have no solutions. I think India is a gone case. majority Hindu hatred for muslims is irredeemable. to the extent that Hindu identity is being asserted not as collection of Hindu religious practices, but in opposition to Islam.

I hope India fails, without much damage to its population.. if there's even a way of that happening. I have no hope from India.

 

[telugu_fan]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:00 AM, Raven_Rayes said:

what cause? the building of Hindutva nation's cause? I wish that cause is defeated.

because a lot of atheists are the ones leading the Hindutva movement. or atleast used to, until Modi/Yogi became powerful. even now plenty of Hindutva intellectuals are not religious.

Atheism has no cause. It has no defined political goal or a community that fights towards it. most atheists are forced to identify themselves with another identity if they want to feel part of a group - like leftist or hindutva etc.

what you have a problem with is leftists.. not atheists. because there are Indian atheists who pour venom only on Islam while giving free pass to xianity. In fact a lot of open atheists are probably of the HIndutva variety.

The cause of scientific temperament that is normally espoused by Atheists that challenge the established norms dogma and cultural practices and always used to ask for reasons why such practices are followed or why only a section of people are on a pedastal or down in the dumps so to speak. It would have helped a lot of people, but when you are only speaking about one religion for good or bad has reformed itslef over the years (however little compared to others) while some other practices are just staring you in the face, then the cause itslef is lost in the long run.

[telugu_fan]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:01 AM, Raven_Rayes said:

its not poor knowledge. Indian govt is actively trying to hurt muslims.

if you think its not true, you are living in la la land.

Instead of blanket statements can you list a few examples of how the Indian govt is actively trying to hurt Muslims, you should have plenty to list from. Maybe it will help me come out from my so called la la land 😀

[Raven_Rayes]

1 minute ago, telugu_fan said:

The cause of scientific temperament that is normally espoused by Atheists that challenge the established norms dogma and cultural practices and always used to ask for reasons why such practices are followed or why only a section of people are on a pedastal or down in the dumps so to speak. It would have helped a lot of people, but when you are only speaking about one religion for good or bad has reformed itslef over the years (however little compared to others) while some other practices are just staring you in the face, then the cause itslef is lost in the long run.

like I already told you a dozen times.. Atheism is no longer a stand alone movement. Atheists now are split between hindutva and leftists.

what you are asking is for leftists to start attacking the minority religion, which they are not going to do. there are atheists from the HIndutva side who do that. several of them. The same Hindutva atheists make all sorts of excuses for caste system on the hindu side.. so its all evened out.

not all atheists are under the service of Hindutva unfortunately.

[telugu_fan]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:19 AM, Raven_Rayes said:

so stop saying Hindus are tolerant of atheists.. they are not. atheists have been murdered in India, jailed for mocking gods.. etc its not that uncommon.

there are women groups helping muslim women to access education, health and marital rights. you want them to be as popular as Javed Akhtar, Irfan Habib, then stop pouring venom on muslims and help such groups.

but if your intention is to attack burqa practice, you are going to fail. because at the fundamental level most groups are worried about kids access to education, and not the backwardness of the cultural practice.

the first aim is to improve muslim girls literacy rates, and access to jobs and bring them into mainstream, and then hopefully someone within that community is going to emerge like a reformer.

anyone who supports burqa as a great thing is a fcuking asshole. so are people who support karnataka's govt order banning burqas at school.. because it affects girl kids education.

you are worried about some cultural signifier (even an oppressive one like burqa), activists are worried about kids access to education.

that said, if the girl wants to wear a burqa to assert her muslim identity, given the overall climate in India where Hindus are breathing venom, I wouldn't blame the girl. Some muslim girls like her wantedly wear burqa as a big middle finger to the majority. I welcome such revolutionary acts.

I consider such women as brave as bhagat singh. because you should try walking with burqa in a politically charged atmosphere. It needs nerves of steel.

Nobody is tolerant of anything that goes against the entities existance. If somebody came and called you names over your views on culture, religion, land you will react viscerally. Its is done by multiple people in this db over political or regional or even on movie idols.

i have said if Hindus are intolerant, you would have found the bodies of the so called atheists on the street a la Sar tan Se Juda, not gracing tv debates time and time again to put forth their views. The poeple who are jailed are not done willy nilly, see under what sections they are charged. people get jail for hurting sentiments for any other religion - be it buddhism, jains, Sikhs or christianity. Islam doesn't need any introduction.

Your info on the Karnataka burqa issue is wrong. Please double check your news sources. The govt is following the order that was passed much before the current BJP govt came to power and is only upholding what educational institutions rule that grant them the right to implement the dress code within the institution.

The girls in Karnataka hijab issue are asking for their right to wear dress in a govt college that has dress code. That dress code has been there for quite a while - not this year, not since 2014 either. Every one attending that college has to wear the school uniform. The girls who joined that school/college knew exactly what they were doing. Yet they insisted on wearing burqa inside the college citing their religious beliefs. there are specific Minority institutions that will cater to everything they were asking for. you cannot come to a school that is being run for every student and demand exclusivity citing religion especially when burqa is a non essential practice and that too in an all girls school.

Tomorrow what stops jains from coming naked to schools or brahmins boys to wear a tilak and janeu and display that in schools. you will be openeing a pandoras box with pandering to the islamists demands.

 

[Raven_Rayes]

34 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

Instead of blanket statements can you list a few examples of how the Indian govt is actively trying to hurt Muslims, you should have plenty to list from. Maybe it will help me come out from my so called la la land 😀

karnataka govt banning hijab from public places. other bjp govts mulling over it. robbing young muslim girls access to education.

discriminating against non-Hindu refugees with CAA.. India's home minister publicly stating that nrc will only be used to evict muslims

banning of meat during dussehra, and even rama navami now. other silly rules that target muslim traders in meat.

arresting random muslim activists (and even Hindu activists) who speak up for the rights of muslims. some even under UAPA.

orchestration of riots in delhi, damaging of muslim properties with the help of police.

felicitating those who are convicted of lynching muslims

 

 

[telugu_fan]

13 minutes ago, Raven_Rayes said:

like I already told you a dozen times.. Atheism is no longer a stand alone movement. Atheists now are split between hindutva and leftists.

what you are asking is for leftists to start attacking the minority religion, which they are not going to do. there are atheists from the HIndutva side who do that. several of them. The same Hindutva atheists make all sorts of excuses for caste system on the hindu side.. so its all evened out.

not all atheists are under the service of Hindutva unfortunately.

I am not asking for no such thing, I am saying if you are a true Atheists that wants scientific temper and wants equality for all and challenge dogma you must question all practices that are regressive. Saying it belongs to minority religion is a cop out and your arguement that both balance itslef out is what causes the questioning of dogma to weaken.

you are already saying that both Hindutva and leftists balance themselves out - but isn't this what is causing the atheists movement to weaken with groupism. The cause for question blind faith and superstition is something that should be at fore front of Atheism not attacking majority or minority religions.

I am saying you question all regressive practices. Hindus are more in number so more instances of practices will come out, but saying everything is wrong in Hindu religion only and all other practices religion or region wise are to be left alone is what will ultimately create what you see as consolidation of Hindus who will be seeing it as a seige mentality and fuel the rise of hindutva like idelogy in the long run. Creating the same thing that people wanted to avoid in the beginning.

[Raven_Rayes]

4 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

Your info on the Karnataka burqa issue is wrong. Please double check your news sources. The govt is following the order that was passed much before the current BJP govt came to power and is only upholding what educational institutions rule that grant them the right to implement the dress code within the institution.

so which institution is in question here? a govt institution. you think its right for govt to ban hijab in its institutions and try to deny girl child its right to education?

 

5 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

Nobody is tolerant of anything that goes against the entities existance. If somebody came and called you names over your views on culture, religion, land you will react viscerally. Its is done by multiple people in this db over political or regional or even on movie idols.

i have said if Hindus are intolerant, you would have found the bodies of the so called atheists on the street a la Sar tan Se Juda, not gracing tv debates time and time again to put forth their views. The poeple who are jailed are not done willy nilly, see under what sections they are charged. people get jail for hurting sentiments for any other religion - be it buddhism, jains, Sikhs or christianity. Islam doesn't need any introduction.

atheists have been murdered in India. atleast 3 high profile atheists have been murdered in the last 5yrs or so. wonder how many else who no one knows of.

Umar Khalid was shot at.

7 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

The girls in Karnataka hijab issue are asking for their right to wear dress in a govt college that has dress code. That dress code has been there for quite a while - not this year, not since 2014 either. Every one attending that college has to wear the school uniform. The girls who joined that school/college knew exactly what they were doing. Yet they insisted on wearing burqa inside the college citing their religious beliefs. there are specific Minority institutions that will cater to everything they were asking for. you cannot come to a school that is being run for every student and demand exclusivity citing religion especially when burqa is a non essential practice and that too in an all girls school.

why does a govt college have a dress code that is not inclusive? that's the answer to your question to what the govt is trying to do. To deny access to muslims basic education among other things.

[Raven_Rayes]

Just now, telugu_fan said:

I am not asking for no such thing, I am saying if you are a true Atheists that wants scientific temper and wants equality for all and challenge dogma you must question all practices that are regressive. Saying it belongs to minority religion is a cop out and your arguement that both balance itslef out is what causes the questioning of dogma to weaken.

you are already saying that both Hindutva and leftists balance themselves out - but isn't this what is causing the atheists movement to weaken with groupism. The cause for question blind faith and superstition is something that should be at fore front of Atheism not attacking majority or minority religions.

I am saying you question all regressive practices. Hindus are more in number so more instances of practices will come out, but saying everything is wrong in Hindu religion only and all other practices religion or region wise are to be left alone is what will ultimately create what you see as consolidation of Hindus who will be seeing it as a seige mentality and fuel the rise of hindutva like idelogy in the long run. Creating the same thing that people wanted to avoid in the beginning.

this is political space... There's no such thing as an Atheist in political space now.

hindutva atheists will pour venom on islam and its practices.. and leftist atheists will attack the dominant religion.

whatever scientific temper you expect from atheists, I don't know. scientifically first the atheist should attack the worship of the nation... abuse nations and try to break unshaking belief in such institutions. because the root of most problems now seems to be nations - not religions.

 

[Raven_Rayes]

7 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

I am not asking for no such thing, I am saying if you are a true Atheists that wants scientific temper and wants equality for all and challenge dogma you must question all practices that are regressive. Saying it belongs to minority religion is a cop out and your arguement that both balance itslef out is what causes the questioning of dogma to weaken.

the biggest dogma now is that nation is supreme. That is the dogma that should be attacked and destroyed in all its forms. religions seem miniscule in comparison.

the amount of sh1t people can get away in the name of nation has expanded beyond belief.

[telugu_fan]

5 minutes ago, Raven_Rayes said:

karnataka govt banning hijab from public places. other bjp govts mulling over it. robbing young muslim girls access to education.

 

I can highlight your entire post as incomplete or incorrect info. but first things first. Karnataka govt has done no such thing as banning burqa in public places. I don't know where you have read it or which news organisation has fed you this tripe. Again please check your news sources. They have let the educational institutions decide what their dress code is again this rule has been there for quite a while in karnataka - this has given the educational institutions the leeway to stop people protesting on dress issues girls wering revealing dressesa nd then some guys trying to moral police them.

 

The Karnataka govt pleaded with the girls along with the school management to ask the girls to attend their exams, but the girls insisted on wearing burqa to an all girls school. As i said if burqa is so important they can go to a minority instituion and do both wear a burqa and also have their education. But when your intention is only to create nuisance then you will cite education, girls rights and everything else.

The alleged ring leader in this mess was one of the girls who btw was wearing riooed jeans and t-shirts and posing for pics with Jignesh mevani and congress leaders,(not that i have an issue with what she wears) but then turn around and say that in all girls schools she doesn't want to show her face to others (in this case implying her teachers who are the only males in her school).

The school and govt of Karnatak had also said they can wear the burqa up till the school but it will have to be school unifom in the premises, which they refused. That tell you how serious they are with their education itself.

[Raven_Rayes]

2 minutes ago, telugu_fan said:

I can highlight your entire post as incomplete or incorrect info. but first things first. Karnataka govt has done no such thing as banning burqa in public places. I don't know where you have read it or which news organisation has fed you this tripe. Again please check your news sources. They have let the educational institutions decide what their dress code is again this rule has been there for quite a while in karnataka - this has given the educational institutions the leeway to stop people protesting on dress issues girls wering revealing dressesa nd then some guys trying to moral police them.

 

The Karnataka govt pleaded with the girls along with the school management to ask the girls to attend their exams, but the girls insisted on wearing burqa to an all girls school. As i said if burqa is so important they can go to a minority instituion and do both wear a burqa and also have their education. But when your intention is only to create nuisance then you will cite education, girls rights and everything else.

The alleged ring leader in this mess was one of the girls who btw was wearing riooed jeans and t-shirts and posing for pics with Jignesh mevani and congress leaders,(not that i have an issue with what she wears) but then turn around and say that in all girls schools she doesn't want to show her face to others (in this case implying her teachers who are the only males in her school).

The school and govt of Karnatak had also said they can wear the burqa up till the school but it will have to be school unifom in the premises, which they refused. That tell you how serious they are with their education itself.

lmao.. govt pleading with the girls to remove burqa, after they've created an issue out of wearing burqa and riled up the hindutva forces in the state.

its the govt that created the problem in the first place. girls are the victims here.

that the govt insists on the girls wearing burqa tells me how serious the govt is about girls education in their state.. especially minority girls. basically they don't give a fcuk.